SASO 2016: Talkback

[referees]

This post is closed; thank you for your feedback. If you would like to provide constructive criticism, please contact the mods directly. All further replies to this entry are screened.

The mods still plan to reply to the topics listed at the bottom of the post.

--

This is not the final wrap-up results/etc. post—that's coming in a couple of days. But while the mods tabulate final scores and create prize graphics, now's a good time to look back and reflect on your SASO 2016 experience.

Please leave comments giving us feedback on the event this year! What did you like? What did you dislike or find frustrating? What can we improve for next year, and how can we improve it? What was your favorite part of the event? Least favorite? Would you participate next year or not? Why? If you could mention your team when making your comment, we'd appreciate it.

If you would prefer to submit your comments in private, you can e-mail us at anime.espn@gmail.com or send us a Dreamwidth PM. We would prefer it if you'd put "Talkback" in the subject line.

Here's what the mod team plans to improve for next year:

• Voting program reliability. We'd like to apologize again for all of the server dowtnime, and definitely plan to make it much more stable for next year. The voting system in general, though, will remain the same.


• Bonus round program reliability. We think we got most of the kinks out during this year, but want to keep it stable for next year too.


• Dreamwidth capability for NSFW cross-posting. We didn't have time to implement it this year, but next year it should be ready to go.


• Clarifying the rules, especially on what "popular culture media" is acceptable to include in SASO work.

We also wanted to thank you again for being patient with us this year. We had a lot of technical hiccups, and you were all so kind while our heroic codermods worked out the kinks. We really appreciated your support.

--

Mod Replies: (updated 12:55PM EDT 8/28/16)

Please note that inclusion of a topic on this list indicates that we're going to address it, not that we've made any decisions on judging/implementing or not implementing it.

Voting:

The preliminary vote system

Triggers in a participant's assigned vote pool

Juried panel (having the mods decide which entries were the best)

Voting mechanics

Bonus Rounds:

Promptless rounds

One day break between bonus rounds

Bonus round prompt and fill tracking/filtering

Recs round work count

Image size limit

Remix round

Remix/rec round timing

Rec round

Quality control (both prompts and fills)

What is allowed as a fill (tags and ratings)

Unscreening bonus rounds

Fairness to small teams

Comment screening

Main Rounds:

The anonymity policy

Professionalism:

Twitter tone

What information gets posted where

Considering a dreamwidth announcement community

Mod participation in the event

Comments

(frozen comment) Pax from KuroKen

[hapaxlegomenon]

I will probably come back and edit this a few times, and I'm not going to bother with making it all pretty or anything. Point form and such. Anyone (mods or otherwise) feel free to ask for elaboration on anything I mention.

These things are presented in no particular order because I'm tired and lazy.

1. Prelim voting: Option to opt out of a set number (3? idk) of tags or ships. I consistently get assigned to at least one of the two major sports ships that I "notp" and I have a very difficult time being objective with them. Conversely, I have been hosed in previous years by people who wouldn't read my team's entry because of a tag and then told me after the event that they'd given it a try and really liked it. So an opt-out would be helpful from at least two points.

2. Prompt-less rounds: It was hard to get going with them but they were fun! Seconding the suggestions above, though, that they not be back-to-back. Personally, I'd have loved to have the fantasy/lore round earlier in the event, when I'm less burnt out and have more energy to focus on the world-building part. Remixes are really fun, despite being a lot of extra pressure, and I'm glad the round exists. I think I get more excited about having my own fills remixed than I am to get original work in response to a prompt.

3. BR themes: I liked them!! Overall very pleased. I wasn't a huge fan of the Gift Tag one (it felt super limiting), and I was really relieved that there wasn't a FST round this year. I would love to see a "missing scenes" BR in future years :')

4. MR formats: Not a mod issue, really, but I'm going to complain about it anyway. A lot of the entries were very much not mobile-friendly, which was frustrating. And I absolutely hate it when MR submissions are downloads. Compounded by the fact that I dislike the whole "visual novel" format in general, but when an entry had a download attached I was immediately turned off. Stop that shit. Not all of us have devices that can handle/store downloaded content.

5. This for other participants, not the mod team, but it's important to say -- stop being assholes to the mod team. Events like this can be super frustrating, especially with the technical difficulties, but acting aggressive towards the people who volunteer to put it together just kind of makes you a jerk.

6. Announcements: I personally had no issues with announcements but I also checked the SASO twitter account fairly regularly.

7. MR limitations: Great improvement from last years' feedback! The graduation between word count/image number ratios was awesome. I'm super glad you guys made that change. And it hasn't come up here (yet), but I know some people have mentioned wanting higher caps; I disagree, I think that the 4k word cap et al. are reasonable restrictions and make the judging process so much more manageable. Also, glory and blessings to the editing period, I can't say enough how much I appreciated that, especially as a team captain.

8. Recs round: Not personally a huge fan of having it be for points, but I understand that it's a good way to encourage people to actually do it. I'm on the fence about that one. But I'm also biased bc I kind of hate doing them, so.

9. Receiving fills: I do not agree with the idea that fills should be restricted in any way. I have received fills that didn't align at all with the prompt, or fills where the filler straight-up ignored the pairing I requested (one instance was particularly disappointing, since they changed one of my fave feel-good ships to a lowkey notp of mine), or fills that I was uncomfortable with or just straight-up disliked -- and the people who wrote them had every right to do so. I don't believe that, in an event like this, the purpose of a fill is to write something that a prompter will love. It's to challenge the filler to produce something, and the prompters more or less just provide an inspiration or a vector to do so. Nobody is obligated to make a fill you want just because you provided the prompt. I found it seriously off-putting when people added all kinds of restrictions to their prompts.

10. Mod Sunny's alphabet-fudging is terrible. Fire them immediately.

11. Despite the issues with voting, I am a big fan of the changes compared to last year -- I was really off-put by the fact that, after voting, you could see the results and re-vote. It seemed to be begging for people to fudge the votes in favour of-against certain teams. I also appreciate not having the points tallied up immediately for BRs -- while it was a feature I used heavily (and maybe obsessed over a little) last year, it was a relief this time around that the numbers weren't so easily accessible and I could just focus on having fun, rather than forcing myself because x team was only y number of fills ahead. I know you've gotten a lot of flack for points and votes systems this year, and they're obviously not perfect yet, but it's definitely an improvement over last year and I think you guys are doing great.

(frozen comment) Re: Pax from KuroKen

[platina]

I strongly disagree with 9. Maybe it's because I'm used to kink meme etiquette, but ignoring someone's prompt is incredibly rude, especially concerning ships or warnings people might have issues with.

If you want to draw/write/whatever something vaguely inspired but not not actually fitting for the prompt, get someone else to prompt it for you or move on to another prompt.

The challenge is to work with the prompt, not to completely run away with it.

(frozen comment)

[catlarks]

I agree with you as far as "don't change the ship" and "don't ignore requests to exclude major tags." Beyond that, I think the entire point is to run with a prompt exactly as far as you can push it. And I think attempting to please the OP above following your inspiration is a waste; the OP is not commissioning me, the OP will not reward me in any way for my writing, I want to produce something that is a recognizable offshoot of their prompt and I want them to like it but I want ME to love it, too.

(frozen comment)

[platina]

I think you misunderstood me. You should still make something you like, but based on what the prompt gives you. If they ask for HS!AU, don't put them in university, etc. You can expand on it, but it's pretty rude to change the the very basis of the prompt.

We had some rounds with very vague prompts (like the gift tags or even the official art one to some degree) where you could pretty much run with anything, but when it's more specific you should at least TRY and not be lol i do what i want for the sake of points.

(frozen comment)

[catlarks]

Fair! I admit that I'm also chewing on the suggestions some people have made to judge whether a fill actually "matches" the prompt and disqualify it from receiving points if it doesn't. I think these two things dovetail: willfully ignoring prompt details is bad form, but I love subversions of prompts, or unexpected interpretations, or selective focus (like with FST round, images round, and quotes round, where one prompt might just be A LOT OF DATA and narrowing your focus keeps you sane).

I think it's fun to try and surprise people, so tbh my preference is "follow the spirit of the prompt, whether or not you follow their map down to the letter."

(frozen comment) Re: Pax from KuroKen

[kazuyas]

SECONDING NUMBER NINE I think while BRs are styled after kinkmemes, where the preferences of the prompter are a bit more important, my impression was always that this was about generating content for the whole of fandom. if a prompter explicitly says "please don't do this," or includes major tags not to use (because triggers should absolutely be respected, esp considering this is content going straight to someone's inbox) then i think the filler should heed that, but? beyond that a prompt is a prompt.

maybe that's just a difference of opinion, but, that hits on something I've been trying to articulate for awhile.

(also seconding no5 but that really ought to go without saying)

(frozen comment) Re: Pax from KuroKen

[lemontongues]

gonna have to at least partially disagree on 9 as well, I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to request that fills not include things that upset or trigger them, and if you're going to fill something in a way that involves violence, body horror, or other potentially disturbing/upsetting content, you should either ask the prompter before doing so or at the very least warn extensively for the content of the fill. if you'd like to write something similar, you can always ask someone who won't be bothered to prompt it for you, but to ask people to not try to protect themselves from things that will upset or otherwise negatively affect them seems pretty unkind. imo prompting and filling should ideally be a case of give and take--it isn't fair for prompters to get so specific that there would only really be one or two ways to fill the prompt or anything like that, and fillers should feel free to play and have fun with the prompt, but twisting it into something violent or disturbing if it's against the prompter's wishes seems really insensitive and unnecessary

(frozen comment) Re: Pax from KuroKen

[dokuhan]

*highlights number nine and puts lots of stars around it* THIS.

While I do think changing the pairing and major tags is a no-no, I do agree that as prompters we have to understand we're just facilitating a starting point for the prompt. It's never going to be 100% exactly what we wanted, otherwise we'd make it ourselves. That freedom is what creates great ideas.

(frozen comment) Re: Pax from KuroKen

[kazuyaloveseijun]

I viewed bonus round fills as gifts, I wrote them with the aim of making the prompter happy. What you're proposing is just using the prompter to do whatever you want. There are people on the other end with feelings, I was scared to open my inbox after some of the unsolicited violent fills I received. If this is the kind of community saso has I wish I'd known sooner to save myself the anxiety and tears and I won't be back again next year

(frozen comment)

[catlarks]

fwiw, I think this goes both ways. I would never want to upset the prompter, and have on more than one occasion asked the OP if they are okay with X or Y content. But on the flipside, the filler is also a person with feelings and their own interests and they are being compensated in no way for what they make, so I feel they should be allowed flexibility in interpretation.

I think it's really noble to view making fills as giving a gift and it's more or less my outlook as well. But a stranger in the event doesn't know what kind of gift you might like, they only have the words in the prompt to go by, so even if you dislike what they made chances are they were making something they hoped you would enjoy.

(frozen comment)

[clefairy]

Not to sound like I'm butting in, but since Hannah is incredibly upset by what she received, I thought I'd give some context. As far as the one I personally know about, she had specifically requested a no death/violence (aka, major tag) for her prompt, and ended up receiving one which was both, which is in really poor spirit from the filler and that's...pretty rude, filler's own feelings and interests aside, because at that point, you know the filler hadn't given a single thought towards the prompter.

(frozen comment)

[catlarks]

Ohh wait, do you mean this prompt and fill? I remember thinking that it was a misunderstanding, since the original prompt was tagged for a death mention. I definitely think it's a problem if someone is willfully ignoring the OP's requests but I guess I just like to assume the best of people, and in this case I want to believe that the writer genuinely thought she would enjoy the fill.

(frozen comment)

[clefairy]

I have to be honest in the fact I had only heard about it paraphrased so I actually didn't realise it could have been something that was as easily misunderstood as that and now I feel really bad because basically neither party is wrong ghghdhhhs

humans are difficult

(frozen comment)

[catlarks]

That's about how I feel! Misunderstandings really suck, but imo they're something we as users have to handle ourselves and the mods cannot and should not have to arbitrate those things for us.

I'm much happier to think that the issues with triggering content were misunderstandings like this, than that the userbase has some bad eggs who just don't care about people's comfort.

(frozen comment)

[sawakise]

I think that it is incredibly rude to assume things without even speaking to me about it first. I spent my Twitter days blissfully unaware of anything happening; you could have even sent me a direct message via Dreamwidth to clarify the entire event. This is the first time that I've heard of such a thing: I had no idea that I harmed another individual through filling a prompt. I'm sorry that you think that this was in "poor spirit" and "pretty rude".

Perhaps this is my fault that I don't have a keen understanding on tags. I don't understand what the tags were for; if you notice anything else that I post in the Bonus Rounds, I fill supernatural fills for the prompt that tags supernatural. I was, and still am, under the impression that the tags were for other individuals who don't want to read a quote poem on breakups and death.

(frozen comment)

[clefairy]

Hi! I'd like to clarify I had only heard about it in paraphrase, so I actually wasn't aware it could have been up to a miscommunication. It's probably too late for that now, but I'd like to apologise to you for making assumptions. I actually didn't even know it was you who made the fill to be honest. I think I heard a name but I couldn't pin it to a person since I'm fairly removed from the event.

I guess the point to take home from all of this misunderstanding is that there definitely needs to be more clarity in what the tags are for and whether violent content should possibly be posted offsite or as the mods had brought up, cross-posted to DW (?). It's not your fault when no one is really sure what tags are used for.

Again I'm really sorry.

if it means anything this is the first time I've read the fill and I personally really like it...but also im an angst monster and i like to Suffer...

(frozen comment)

[sawakise]

First and foremost: I accept your apology.

I think that it was harsh to jump to conclusions about me and I felt pretty terrible being labeled as a person who would intentionally target someone and use their triggers against them. I understand that my "boo-boo" of hurt is nothing compared to someone's safety being compromised, but I don't appreciate being called out THIS LATE in a public forum. That was from the quotes bonus round, which was well over a month ago. It sounded like I was being dragged through the mud over a misunderstanding, especially since simply coming to me personally would have just resulted in me deleting a fill with a simple click of the button as well as issuing a formal apology (which I have done, the latter, not the former, because I'm waiting to see what the other individual wants me to do. I'm not good in situations like these.)

The way that I treat tags is more like guidelines, to be honest. It's probably not the most "fandom"-savvy, but when there's an entire bonus round dedicated to myth and lore and everyone has to post "tags: supernatural", I assumed that it meant that I'd have to cater to those tags specifically. I definitely agree that tags should be clarified; I had thought that if a prompter is triggered by certain things, then they would never explicitly mention it or post a prompt relating to it.

Anyways--I should stop rambling. I was just taken aback from being vagued at and that I didn't given a "single thought towards the prompter", because that could be further from the truth. I hope that this misunderstanding can be cleared up and that we can move to creating a safer space in the future.

(frozen comment)

[catlarks]

(this is off-topic (ish) but I wanted to second that I enjoyed the fill you wrote for the prompt in question! I feel I would have made the same assumption you did: the prompt was tagged for a character death mention, so a fill with character death was appropriate, and I really liked how you chose to follow through on that.

I read a whole handful of things you've written this SASO and enjoyed them a lot; I'm genuinely sorry I didn't have the energy to leave nice comments at the time. So I just... Wanted to let you know that I think your SASO contributions were great. ♥ )

(frozen comment)

[sawakise]

(Not to sound ungrateful, but I think I would feel better if this wasn't a fill that hurt someone.

But the other fills that you enjoyed that didn't hurt someone? Thank you! That means a lot to me; energy aside, I'm glad that you enjoyed my writing.)

(frozen comment)

[kazuyaloveseijun]

Your creativity is not more important than my safety and you've already made me cry enough times this competition please just leave me alone

(frozen comment)

[nee_saan]

considering that was my teammate's fill, i'd like to weigh in and insist that this was not done with the intentions to harm you; personally, your prompt was vague regarding the death mention, and while you received something you did not want, you didn't actually have to read it because the filler tagged appropriately. There are things we come across everyday we don't want to see, and very rarely do we get a big old tag that says 'death mention' across the front of it so we can choose not view it. With a 'competition' of over 300 people, is your safety more important? or is it more important for you to evaluate what's safe for you to participate or not participate in?

nobody is going out of there way to upset you, there is just much more at play here than a prompt or two that veered a little off track of what you wanted.

(frozen comment)

[kazuyaloveseijun]

Well I had no way of knowing the culture of saso before hand to know it was an unsafe place to begin with since it was my first time but after my experience with it I'm not going to repeat it next year so, lesson learned and mistake not going to be made again

(frozen comment)

[tempestuously]

I don't know anyone involved here, but I just want to say that this conversation is very frustrating. To tell a person that they didn't have to read the fill that was going to automatically go to their inbox is really a stretch. I understand this was an unintentional mistake and I don't think anyone should be blamed for the misinterpretation. I can easily see how it could happen since the prompt had dark undertones and the "pls no" could have been taken in jest. All that is fair.

But to tell someone that the person filling THEIR prompt shouldn't have to take their feelings under considering is very cold. The way you worded it is equally cold. They have a right to say they were upset and you have a right to say it was an accident. Leave it at that and don't blame the prompter for reading the fill left for THEIR prompt.

(frozen comment)

[sawakise]

Why wasn't this brought to my attention?

I understand that I hurt you. I genuinely feel very bad. But why didn't you just tell me about it? I didn't intend to hurt you, that is the farthest from the truth that could ever be misconstrued. Why didn't you come to me so we could settle this? Disregarding other social media, you could have just written me a message or replied or gotten one of your friends whose safety wouldn't be jeopardized to tell me.

As someone else mentioned, I genuinely thought that the "death mention, breakup, pls no" was in jest. I was like, oh, that's what they want. Like in the way that someone says: it would suck if I got angst, haha, nudge, nudge. I've filled many supernatural death prompts that had tags: supernatural, death in the prompt. There have been many prompts with the tag "underage" get fills that tagged "underage" for it. I hope that you don't think that these are excuses: this is am explaining how I wish that this could have been resolved much earlier.

There was no way for me to apologize, PUBLICLY APOLOGIZE for the genuinely terrible thing that I have done to you, until now. I am sorry that I hurt you.

(frozen comment)

[kazuyaloveseijun]

I didn't say anything because I was too scared to, I honestly thought I must have done something to make you angry with me and I didn't know what. Thank you for the apology.